EP06 - Miraculous Surgical Cases and Innovative Experiments Regarding Metal Allergies and Galvanism with Dr. Scott Schroeder, DPM, FACAS

EP06 - Scott Schroeder

CHAPTERS: 

00:01:16     Dr. Schroeder Bio & Background
00:04:53    Surgical Miracle #1.
00:07:55    Why Surgeons & Practitioners Think Titanium is Inert.
00:09:06    Surgical Miracle #2
00:13:31     Surgical Miracle #3.
00:15:47     About Delayed Hypersensitivity Reactions.
00:22:30    Explaining Galvanic Hardware Reactions. 
00:26:00    Miracle Story Presented to the FDA.
00:36:47    Internal Hardware Reacts to Lightning.
00:39:38    Patient Recovers from Stiff Man Syndrome.
00:49:18    Metal Allergy vs Metal Toxicity.
00:50:17     Detox Metals Carefully.
00:52:02    Pre-surgical Considerations & LTT Testing. 
00:55:45    Alternative to Metal Implants. 
01:00:41     How Patients Can Communicate with Providers. 
01:01:54     Of Surgical Clips & Staples. 
01:03:56     How Can Medical Facilities Better Screen For Metal Allergies. 
01:04:55     Prepping Yourself & Surgical Consents Pre-Surgery. 
01:09:47     The Role of Diet In Metal Hypersensitivity.
01:11:26      Future Projects Dr. Schroeder is Working On.
01:17:29      Dr. Schroeder’s Favorite Heavy Metal Song. 

TRANSCRIPT: 

[00:01:16] Shari: Hello Metalheads and welcome to the jungle. Thanks for coming back for this edition of the Heavily Metaled podcast. Today we have a super special guest that I am crazy excited about. We have Dr. Scott Schroeder joining us. He has been a foot and ankle surgeon for over 30 years.

Surgically he has placed thousands and thousands of metallic implants over his career. He became more and more aware of reactions to these implants as time went on. Not just local reactions, but disabling systemic reactions, necessitating the need to remove implants. 

Over the past decade or so, Dr. Schroeder has removed more than a thousand implants in more than 400 patients. He presented to the FDA in 2019 on the systemic effects of metal allergies. He has presented in London and Australia numerous times and in numerous international conferences around the world. In his surgery center, he tested significant galvanic current changes before and after removing metal implants from the body in relation to dental metals.

And he's in the process of writing up this study with colleagues and in contact with doctors and scientists around the world regarding metal allergies and reactions. So welcome Dr. Schroder to our podcast!

[00:02:34] Dr. Schroeder: Well, thank you. Thank you, thank you. Great to be here. 

[00:02:38] Shari: The show's all yours. Tell us about all the things.

[00:02:42] Dr. Schroeder: Oh boy. Kind of my background: I was born and raised here in Wenatchee, Washington, in the center of the state here, and then went down to WSU and then did pre-med down there. And then down in San Francisco is where I did all my medical training as well as my residency down there and then I ended up getting back up to the above Seattle area.

My wife's from here too, so we moved on back and been in practice for, over 30 years. As you mentioned, a lot of surgical procedures in the foot in the ankle and lots of plates... screws. The hardware's kind of changed over the years.

Transferred more to titanium just cuz they were easier to bend and manipulate to the bones and, the structure of the foot and then with the invention of the locking screws, then they were just a more stable construct for patients.

But as time went on, and even when I first started seeing some of the titanium implants come up decades ago…started noticing some issues with that. Of course we've had some issues with nickel allergies and then stainless steel but what I didn't realize, way back when, was some of the systemic changes.

Yeah, okay. Pain and swelling over the site of where I'd placed the implant, but then probably one of the first…one was a gal in her thirties who I had operated on and had a couple of screws in each metatarsal. She came to me a number of months after the surgery.

And the surgery all was healing fine. And she was doing well there. And actually there weren't many symptoms there but she had a history, at least a diagnosis, of rheumatoid arthritis, but no real symptoms per se to any significant degree. But she came to me and said, “Hey, I cannot button up my blouse. I cannot open a door with my hand. I have to use two hands to open my door.”. 

And I go, “Hmm, that's kind of strange.”. We were planning on removing the screws anyway, took the screws out and next day she can button up her blouse just fine, could open up the door just fine.

And she was very concerned about being able to take care of her two young daughters. And then what happened a year later, we ended up doing the other foot. And the same thing happened again with the same result after taking the screws out. 

[00:04:50] Shari: That's a connection. 

[00:04:52] Dr. Schroeder:  Yeah. So cause and effect.

So then another gal who was quite prominent in our community, in her particular case I used titanium in her foot. It was a bunion-type surgery. And the plan was after about three or four months to get it out. It was, spring, like May or June that I'd done the surgery.

And then I saw her in the pre-op to get the screws out and it was my staff that kind of said “Ya know, she’s not in a very good mood.”. So, I walk in, I go “What’s going on?”. She goes, “Oh man, I have just had all kinds of issues going on. I can hardly move. I can hardly get up from a sitting position. I can hardly move my neck. I just feel like I have the flu all the time. I've been to a number of different doctors….they’re gonna send me to a specialist over in Seattle to try to figure out what's going on…run all kinds of tests.”.

And so I go, “Okay, well I've seen some things with metal that I've had in people's feet, but you know, we'll see what happens.". And so later that week I take the hardware out and then next week I see her and I go, “How you doing?”. She goes, "Oh, the foot feels good.” And I go, “No, what about the other symptoms?”. And she goes, “Oh, all that's gone.”. And she's had that for a number of months. And even in that short period of time just after getting the titanium out everything disappeared.

[00:06:07] Shari: Unbelievable! You mentioned that these implants were titanium. I wanna go back for just a second. Prior to titanium, what was being used? Was titanium not the standard of care early on? 

[00:06:19] Dr. Schroeder: It's just that we didn't have the implants, it was mostly just stainless steel. These companies came out of Germany and really helped progress….healthcare…and being able to fixate fractures and all this stuff.

Metal has been very good for being able to do these things rather than just some of these screws and plates and all this versus just some of the pins we had before. And so all of that has been great. It's been a progression. And then titanium…one of the highest allergens is that of nickel.

According to some of the FDA studies, 18 to 20% of us are allergic to nickel and stainless steel is around 14 to 16% nickel. You do a hundred patients, how many might you have a problem with, right? And so then one of the things was coming out with the titanium to try to be less reactive than stainless steel, which I believe it is.

But still, it is not inert. It is not inert by any means, which, unfortunately some surgeons believe that titanium is inert and this is not the case. I can tell you from you know personal experience with seeing this, cuz that's pretty much what I put in vast majority of my patients.

Unless there was something else that they like, let's say they had a stainless steel plate and screw in their ankle from a previous ankle fracture. And then I would use stainless steel on the foot. I wouldn't use titanium because that's where I feel we've been getting some of the different problems with….titanium’s more positively charged, stainless steel’s, more negatively charged and then we can get a galvanic reaction between the two.

And so I wanna stick with the similar metal or even elsewhere in their body also, if they had stainless steel. And that's some of the things we can go into later with some of these studies that I've been working on. 

[00:07:55] Shari: So why do surgeons and physicians think that titanium is inert? Is that what they're taught in medical school, or where does that come from?

[00:08:02] Dr. Schroeder: I believe it’s either what they were taught or what they're told by the reps, but it is definitely out there that you can't be reacting to titanium and so many, so many cases where that is not the case.

It's an awareness. And at the beginning I probably didn't have the same awareness either, but then when I started seeing it, knew what to look for and the questions to ask. Then you go, ‘oh, okay’. Then you can start seeing some of these things. 

[00:08:28] Shari: How did you even have that on your radar? How were you open-minded enough to catch that? Was it just trial and error with these patients that came in and random/not random coincidences? 

[00:08:38] Dr. Schroeder: Well, at the beginning you don't understand or don't realize that their headache or their stiff neck or shoulder or what have you, may be related to what I put in the foot. I mean, why would it be, right? But then these things keep coming up after you put this metal in their body and even brain fog…some of these other things that are going on. 

Do you wanna hear a patient and what they had to say?

[00:09:05] Shari: Absolutely. 

[00:09:06] Dr. Schroeder: Okay, so let’s get this up. This is a voice memo so this is one typical example. Okay. And this patient happened to have titanium in her and I'd operated in June, I believe, of that particular year. 

“Alright. So you had some reconstructive right foot surgery with titanium plates and screws. And just recently, this last week we got the plates and screws out. And prior to that, what did your body feel like?”. 

[00:09:32] Patient: “Since June I have been experiencing all over body pain, fatigue, joint stiffness, and then nerve pain in the foot and going up the leg to the back.”.

[00:09:45] Dr. Schroeder: “And what about your focus or…”

[00:09:48] Patient: “I've been in kind of a brain fog since the surgery. I thought it was the anesthetic for quite awhile, but four months later it really hadn't worn off much. I wake up in the morning and I feel like I haven't rested at all. I get home at night and I just can do nothing because, just going to work has been enough and it's just been uh…mentally taxing.”.

[00:10:09] Dr. Schroeder: “So. And since getting the hardware out, what do you have been feeling?” 

[00:10:12] Patient: “The first thing I noticed when I went home was a lot of energy and feeling like I just was thinking clearly. Other than the local pain from the surgery, the overall body pain was gone. My back pain was gone. The nerve pain is gone. The aches…the joint pain, all gone.”. 

[00:10:30] Dr. Schroeder: “All right, thanks.”. 

[00:10:34] Shari: That's pretty undeniable evidence. 

[00:10:37] Dr. Schroeder: So when you start hearing this and hear what they have to say—and I never promise anybody that okay if I take this out it's gonna go away. I'll say, ‘I've seen this before. Multiple times. And vast majority of the time I get things out and hey we're doing good’. But they're worried and they're concerned because this has obviously affected her life. Right? 

[00:10:58] Shari: So this is a systemic allergy. You, mentioned that, and we've discussed prior on the podcast, it's a type four metal allergy. Why don't you go into a little bit about what a type four delayed hypersensitivity reaction is? Because I think you can explain why there seems to be such an immediate turnaround with these patients once many of them have their hardware removed. And also, I'm gonna tie this into that question: Don’t hardware reps state that once you no longer need the hardware that you should have it removed? And is this common practice with surgeons or is it kind of under the radar? 

[00:11:34] Dr. Schroeder: Well, One of the big companies that I had talked to the rep, he said over in Europe, at least at that time, and this was a number of years ago, that in Europe it's more, okay, these are temporary fracture fixations: the metal, the plates and screws.

So you put it in, you fix the fracture. When we make bone cuts, it's a surgical fracture of the bone and then we reposition and then screw it back together. So in Europe it's okay…do that. After the bone is healed-8 to 12…sometimes longer weeks, the metal's just sitting there. It’s not doing anything. It's done its job and so you don't need it anymore. And I don't know if it's just a mindset or… over in Europe, Okay, we're putting in…let’s get it out and just be done with it. And over here our lives are too busy?

You know, it’s not every single case that by any means that has an issue. I think when we started using these locking plates and everything more than the screws and…before we just use screws, but now we have locking plates…they take up more room.

And so then on top of the foot, that can potentially rub more and irritate more in the shoe. And then, so I started taking more out because of that reason, but then started hearing , the other complaints coming on and started tying it all together. And so I think in our country it's more of an inconvenience then to go back in and get it out.

But I had patients coming 15 to 20 years later that then realized they were having a problem. “Oh, I just found out from some allergy testing that I was allergic to nickel and you put stainless steel in me 14-15 years ago…”, and then find out that, oh yeah, this is tied to all these other symptoms going on.

So, yeah, some of them are long, long standing as far as some of these issues. And I’ll show you another one that's more on the stainless steel side of things. And related to some of these muscle cramping and spasms and this type of thing that…

[00:13:28] Shari: That’s something I had a lot of. 

[00:13:31] Dr. Schroeder: It can definitely be related to the metals where you get some of this, and that's what I'm seeing, frequently in some of this. Okay. So this is the gal…you can just hear her story when we talk about it here. 

“Okay? So about 11 years ago you had fractured your ankle and you had a stainless steel plate and screws placed, and then what kind of symptoms did you develop after that. And how far after you had your ankle fracture did you notice those symptoms? 

[00:14:00] Patient: “Yeah, it was a…okay. It was about a year, maybe two years after the fracture I started to develop severe muscle cramps and leg aches in my leg. And a lot of times they would be after I went to sleep at night, maybe 15 minutes to an hour after I went to sleep, I would be woken up at night with severe leg cramps so bad that I couldn't sleep.

A lot of times I couldn't even get out of bed and walk and even walk them out. It would take me a long time. I would stand and cry and try to massage them out. They couldn't even be massaged out even with hot water or even with a jacuzzi. That wouldn't even work. I had to try to just wait out the pain.

We tried various drugs: Tramadol, Vicodin, Quinine, all kinds of drugs. Nothing eased the pain at all. I just had to wait for the cramps to go away. They were almost constantly every night. They were worse on nights that I did a lot of activity on my legs, but they were almost every single night.”

[00:15:03] Dr. Schroeder: “And then we had done some surgery on your big toe joint and had a plate and screws there. And I noticed you were having some symptoms there. More than I'd expect.. So then we talked about the plate in your ankle and decided just to get that out at the same time. And what happened after that in regards to your leg symptoms?”.

[00:15:20] Patient: Okay, Well, as soon as you took the plate out of my legs, I have not had a single leg cramp of any kind since then. Not one, not even a twinge. Nothing.  I've not taken any drugs for any leg cramps at all. Not even a Tylenol. None.” 

[00:15:37] Shari: So these were up in her leg and the hardware's in her foot. So go back and talk about the systemic type IV reaction. How is that different? And it's delayed, correct?

[00:15:47] Dr. Schroeder: Right. So you heard what she said and that's why I wanted to play this particular one is that she had the ankle fracture 11 years ago, but her symptoms didn't come on ‘till about a year after that, right? So that's the delay where if you have a type I type reaction, where you respond to getting stung by a bee…that type of thing. But this is a delayed reaction. Your body then sees the allergen, which is the nickel, and there's other different components to stainless steel also. Nickel and chromium and molybdenum, but nickel is the biggest one. But, you may not respond right away but then your body sees it and then starts to develop an allergic reaction to it where then these things can start occurring.

 One of the common things that I'll see is, tightness or joints. I operate on the feet and it's hard for them to move their hands. And so it can be in the hands. The neck is one that tends to be sensitive.

[00:16:44] Shari: Even when the surgery's all the way down in the foot?

[00:16:48] Dr. Schroeder: Oh yeah, yeah. 

[00:16:44] Shari: Okay. 

[00:16:48] Dr. Schroeder: Yeah. Even when the surgery's in the foot. And that's why I'll ask you know about ‘okay, do you have any pain’? And I had a number of patients that had arthritis in their knee. And then I did foot surgery and then they were getting injections. And it was some mild arthritis and it really didn't bother them.

But after I did surgery, then they were having increased pain in the knee, and then they were getting cortisone injections…but it only helped so much. And then one of the gals was looking at getting a knee replacement because of the pain was so bad then we ended up taking the screws outta the foot. Guess what? Knee pain dramatically improved. And she goes, “No way am I gonna get a knee implant at this point in time!". But it was really because of that. And that's what I'll see with some of these is these metal allergies and reactions could exacerbate arthritis in other joints in the body.

That's where you have to look at, okay, do I have arthritis of this joint. It's hard. I need surgery in the shoulder… And you need to look at, okay, what other metals do you have in your body? And not only down in the foot or knee or wrists or whatever, but even dental metals. And that's what we started to get it into in some of the testing that we ultimately did between the foot metal I was taking out of the foot and then the mouth and some of the reactions in some of those patients and some of their responses to that.

[00:18:05] Shari: It's really interesting that in my particular case, it wasn't until I had the SI joint fusions, which were in my pelvis, that I started having the most severe symptoms. I was having symptoms all along. I was bedridden. If anybody's tuning in, go back and catch the first episode and you can hear the full story.

But when I had those pelvic implants clear down there, the thing that really got bad were my knuckles in my hands. And they were red and they were swollen, and they were shiny. And it was almost overnight. And when I had the hardware removed from my back, that went away the minute I walked outta surgery and that's what you saw with the first patient. She goes home feeling all this energy and normally she couldn't even function. So when you remove the hardware from these patients who are effective, the results are pretty much immediate, aren't they? 

[00:18:51] Dr. Schroeder: In a lot of my patients it has been. By the time I see 'em five days later to check for any signs of infection vast majority of the issues that we were having…

[00:19:01] Shari: And that's gotta be really refreshing for a patient to hear, cuz many patients walk into a doctor…you have ankle surgery and it's like, ‘gee, I got this pain up here in my shoulder.’ They're like, ‘I don't know, you know, so sorry you have pain in your shoulder,’ and they move down the road. So you've gotta be a really refreshing experience to patients that are suffering. 

[00:19:18] Dr. Schroeder: Well, is it the case all the time? No, but I mean there's many reasons for shoulder pain, right? But it's a question that you have to ask sometimes that's actually a particular case in point that kinda leads into some of the galvanic research that I've been doing in the surgery center.

A patient that…she was a professor at a institution back on the East Coast. And she had heard my FDA talk and had gotten in touch with me and wanted to use some of my things in something she was doing…some of my comments and quote me and that type of thing.

And I said, sure. And she showed me what she was doing and that was great. And then later she got in touch with me… “I have a question about myself…”. And I go, “Sure. That's fine.”.  She had written about metals in the body and particularly in the mouth and problems they had caused for her personally and that type of thing.

And she worked with a dentist on this and wrote a book. When she got the metals out then she dramatically improved. In her case it took awhile but then she had some arthritis in a shoulder and so she went to the professors at the university…the doctors and surgeons, that type of thing.

And they said, “Oh, you're gonna need a shoulder replacement…with metal.”. And she's going, “Nooo, I just got all this metal out and I don't wanna do that!”. So she got in touch with me so I go through my, plan and how I talk to 'em about this and the questions I ask…okay, what other metal do you have?

Okay, what do you have in your mouth? Okay. People thinking it's strange that I ask about the metals in the mouth, but these can react and we really have to.
She had two porcelain fused to metal crowns and she had titanium posts within those crowns and had previous root canals. And then I said “How about any other metal in your body?”. “Well, not that I know of.” “Okay, what other surgeries did you have?”. “I had a belly surgery." “Okay, you need to get x-rays and make sure you don't have any clips or anything there or anything left over.”. And, I go, "Any other surgery?”.

She goes, “Oh yeah, I had a foot surgery.”. And I go, "Okay, what'd you have?”. She goes, “Well, I had some bone spurs around the joint there and they removed those.”. “Okay, usually we don’t put metal in there.”. And she goes, “Oh, but I had a second surgery.”. And I go, “Oh?” and she goes, “But they didn't talk about putting any metal in.”.

I go, “Well, you know, did they talk about fusion or…?”. “Well, they did kind of talk about that.”. I go, “Get your x-rays and see what's going on.”. She called me the next day and she goes, “Ah! I have two screws in my first metatarsal!”, that's just behind the big toe. And she had some arthritis of the big toe joint, but it wasn't too bad and she didn't really have a whole lot of pain. She had some swelling and some pain with it, but she was still out walking a number of miles. And I go, “Go talk to him. Just talk to him about getting the screws out.”. And so she went and talked to him, says, “We want to get these screws out.”.

And they go, “Well, no, that's not your problem. You have arthritis of a joint. We’ll take the screws out when we go in and put another plate and six screws in.”, And she's going, No, I don't want that, can you just take the screws out?”. “No, we're not gonna do that.”. So she was frustrated and she called me and she goes, “Scott, can I just fly out there and have you take the screws out?”. So I go, "Okay, sure.”.

At that time I was already doing galvanic testing and they were stainless steel screws and I can show you some of this testing to give you an idea of what we're doing. 

[00:22:20] Shari: Before we do that, let's go back and explain, cuz you've hinted on galvanic reactions a couple times. Start at the beginning and tell listeners that may not have any idea what a galvanic reaction is. 

[00:22:30] Dr. Schroeder: Okay. The most common thing is a battery. You have the positive and negative, right? And if you take a wire and touch the two together, what's gonna happen? Ya know… let's get a, bzzzzztttt…okay. And so then you're getting a current between the two. And our body is full of currents. That's what's, our heart is going to, you know…electrical currents, all our muscles, all of our movements. It's all electrical currents going throughout our body. And what fires off an action potential of a nerve is about minus 70 millivolts, Okay? Millivolts is what fires off an action potential of a nerve to allow our, eyelids to blink, our heart to go….it controls our whole being as far as that goes. And in metals, like titanium is more positively charged and stainless steel is more negatively charged, or amalgams in your mouth are more negatively charged, where gold is more positively charged. And the more positively charged is a more noble metal, it's called. 

For years they’ve talked about galvanism in the mouth and the old Wrigley's spearmint gum wrapper that's metal. And then you can taste the metal taste in your mouth.

[00:23:39] Shari: So I used to get a shock feeling if I'd get some metal from a gum wrapper in my mouth. It used to shock me. And I never knew where that came from. 

[00:23:48] Dr. Schroeder: Oh yeah. Most of us had fillings when we were young and a lot of the old amalgam fillings which are 50% mercury, and mercury is a neurotoxin. It's not a good idea to necessarily have neurotoxins in your body if you can avoid it. What happens then is all metals will corrode as time goes on. All metals will…

[00:24:06] Shari: Even titanium? 

[00:24:08] Dr. Schroeder: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:24:09] Shari: Okay. 

[00:24:10] Dr. Schroeder: Yeah. I have pictures of titanium corroding in four months. I mean, a layer of black corrosion underneath the plate that I sent off to the pathologist and the black material that was on the bone had titanium particles in it.

[00:24:25] Shari: Is it always that way or just depends on the chemistry of the patient?

[00:24:29] Dr. Schroeder: Right. It's not always that way. Obviously all of this needs further testing and ideally it's gonna be in a university type setting, but I mean multiple times I've seen black tissue around these plates and screws. Particularly at the locking plate where the screw locks in around that site.

I was told from some of the reps that they'll stiffen up the threads of the locking screw and, they'll put metal to harden it up so that it can screw in and basically cut into the locking plate. Well then that can be a different type of metal, and that's many commonly where I'll see the black tissue, the corrosion tissue around that…around the screw plate interface.

But in some of 'em it's just black tissue underneath the whole plate. I've seen that with stainless steel as well as titanium. It’s not every patient by any means, but it certainly is some, so we get a reaction. But what happens then when you get a galvanic reaction where you will start getting the flow between the two of an electrical current, then typically you will start corroding faster, the less noble metal or the more negative metal. And, they still can be two positive metals, but the one that's more negative compared to the most positive one, then it can start corroding faster and then you're gonna release metal ions. Okay. Metal ions. 

[00:25:47] Shari: Can you just have a case of galvanism, which is the current reacting without additional implant degradation and corrosion? Or is there always corrosion just at varying speeds? 

[00:26:00] Dr. Schroeder: Yeah, pretty much all metals are gonna corrode. It may take, you know thousands of years but they're all gonna corrode at some degree. It can be very, very slow. So it’s negligible, doesn't really matter a whole lot. And, and then if the body's not sensitive to it, then, you know, all of us are different, right? Where we start having more issues is where somebody is allergic to these various metals and then you put a second metal in, which I've done in patients, or I've had done in some of my patients, where they were fine with just one metal in, then the second metal was placed.

That's where this whole idea first came from in my mind is that, hey, I had this titanium in this person and she was fine. No problems. All of her symptoms started when she got her stainless steel bar behind her lower teeth. Since we're there, you wanna hear that story?

[00:26:53] Shari: Absolutely. I wanna hear all the stories. I wanna hear every one you have!

[00:26:00] Dr. Schroeder: I don’t know about all the stories…I have too many! So this is one I presented to the FDA. It’s a pretty dramatic story. She is a teacher. She came in, she had her first surgery and she was 16 and had stainless steel on her foot and then had stainless steel put in.

And she's was in her thirties or early forties at this point. So then she came in and then she needed more surgery and I said, “Okay.”. And I was asking my typical metal questions. “Do you have any problems with earrings?” , and other things. “Well, yeah, I get all red and irritated.”.

“Okay…most likely you're allergic to nickel and you have stainless steel in-let’s get that stainless steel out. We'll put titanium in, in place of that.”. And at that point, I was just using screws. I wasn't using the plates. And, went ahead and re-did things.

We had to shift her bone…got this titanium in…surgery did well. She did well. No issues. See you later. But I told her with these screws, if you have any irritation, with these screw heads, let me know. I can get those out. And maybe 50% back then I would take out, or a little less. And then as time went on that was my recommendation. If we put it in, my recommendation would be to get it out as I learned more and more. Not everybody did that.

That was their choice. She came back a number of years later and she goes, “Yeah, I'm starting to notice this. Can you just get these, screws out?”. “Sure.”. So I'm doing the pre-op and I looked at her list of meds and she's on all these different medications that she wasn't on that a couple years prior. It was probably four years or so when we had done the surgery and, she wasn't on all these meds. And I go, “What's going on with these medications?”. She goes, “Oh, these are for my fibromyalgia.”. And I go, “How long's that been going on?”. “About two years.”. “And what else do you have?”. "Oh, I have this really bad chronic fatigue where I'm a teacher and I'll just go and send the kids off at lunch and I'll sleep underneath the desk till they come back and then, I just have to go to bed early every night.”. And I go, “Oh, well how long's that been going on?”. “Oh, about two years.”. That's when I already had an inkling for the metals. I go, "You have any other metal in your body?”. “No.” And then I started asking about the dental fillings and dental work and “You have any fillings in your mouth?”.

“No. Nope. Never had a cavity.”. I'm going, ‘oh man….’. And then she goes, “Oh, but I have this bar behind my lower teeth.”. And I go, "Oh, so you had braces?”, And she goes, "Yeah this is a permanent retainer, and I had braces.”. and I go, “When did you get your braces?”. She goes, “Oh, about two years ago.”. And so I go, “Go and find out when you got your braces on and when all these symptoms started.”.

So sure enough, she calls me the next day, “Oh my God! At the end of August I had my braces put on. It was like the first week or so of September where all these chronic fatigue symptoms started and then the fibromyalgia set and all this.”. So that's her background story. So then you can hear from here what occurred. 

“Okay. Around 2016, we were having some symptoms with a screw, so we decided to get it out. And then we realized you were having a number of different symptoms. Fibromyalgia type symptoms. You were diagnosed with some chronic fatigue and we decided to get you metal tested. Found out you were allergic to titanium dioxide and nickel and vanadium, both of which titanium dioxide and vanadium were in the titanium in your foot. So we decided to get that out. Also, you had a stainless steel bar with 15% nickel behind your lower teeth. So what happened after we got the, titanium screws out of your foot?

[00:29:20] Patient: “So almost immediately after you took the screws out of my feet, I noticed that almost all of my body pain and my migraine symptoms had gone away. And within a couple of weeks, actually all of my rosacea had cleared so I was able to stop most of my medicines within a month. I was, I think I was taking 18 different medicines for fibromyalgia at that point. Shortly after that, I made an appointment to take the bar out from my teeth and since then, I take one pill a day for my migraines and that's it.”.

[00:30:50] Dr. Schroeder: "Okay, thanks.”.

So that's the way that kind of goes. And then I'm going, okay, this didn't start until after she got her stainless steel in and the titanium was okay, but then I take the titanium away and then things are/have improved, then continue to improve.

So we were having a reaction between the two in my thought process. That's what kind of led me in then to, okay, what's going on? Then we sent her off for blood testing and she was allergic to actually both metals—ones that she, had in her foot and the ones she had up in her mouth because that was the nickel.

And she had rosacea since she was 16. Remember what I told you when she had her first screw placed. Was when she was 16, and then the rosacea all went away. She was treated by dermatologists and everything for years. And it was just because she had metal in her body.

[00:31:41] Shari: But the galvanic current can exist even if there's no allergy. Correct. That's just a result of the dissimilar metals. 

[00:31:49] Dr. Schroeder: Correct. Things are definitely worse when you do have an allergy to one or both of those metals. So that's what I think we still need to completely figure out, I'm seeing all these results with this.

You're having shooting pains, other things, that type of thing going on, is it all just because of the allergy or like the first gal we listened to, she had shooting pains going on and in her particular case she also had amalgam in her mouth.

So she's gonna have galvanic reactions. So was that what was causing some of the shooting pains or was it just all the allergy? But my inkling is it could be some of the shooting pains that are affected by the nerves being affected by this reaction.

[00:32:28] Shari: So you did a pretty remarkable experiment to actually measure current in a patient. Can you talk about some of that?

[00:31:37] Dr. Schroeder: Yeah. the gal I was telling you about, who was the professor, had written like 70 different medical journal articles, all this stuff. She had porcelain fused to metal crowns, and so she flew on out and so this is in her mouth and we were testing the porcelain fused to metal crown. So here's the screw that we tested to okay? And this is sterilely in the operating room. And then remember I said minus 70 millivolts. Okay 70 millivolts is where a nerve fires off. So her reading was minus 148 or 149 millivolts. Right? 

[00:33:13] Shari: Okay. 

[00:33:14] Dr. Schroeder: And then I took the screw out and I tested to the bone. All right, and then she measured plus 60. So she has an over 200 millivolt change before and after that. Now remember she was coming to me, or she was asking about “Okay, you know, they're telling me I need a shoulder replacement.” All this, right? And she does, she has some arthritis in the shoulder. And I'm not a shoulder surgeon by any means, but I see arthritis all the time in the foot, right? And I was going, “Okay, yeah, you have some arthritis there. I don't know if it would be enough to cause all the pain that you're experiencing…”. 

But, she was having other symptoms too, so she wanted to at least get the screws out. So we tested, we took the screws out and she happened to be staying with us cuz I'd known her and I was gonna take her to the airport the next morning, so, I texted her, “Okay, I'm gonna come down and pick up your bags and I'll take you to the airport.”. So I go down there and she's just crying and I'm going, “Oh is the foot hurting cuz it’s a very small incision, and all this. And I like to use the long acting type local. She goes, “No, it doesn't hurt at all, but look!”. And she hadn't been able to move her arm from this position for years. She can't move it past there for years, years, years. So she goes, “Yeah…no, the foot feels fine, but look!”, and she brought her arm up like that.

And she goes, “I went to get dressed this morning and I could actually put my blouse on without having to really jerry-rig around.”. So she was just totally excited about that. And to make a really long story short that took a number of years. She was tested, she was allergic to molybdenum, which is in stainless steel. Okay? So, yep. Yep. Then she ended up patch testing positive to titanium, which is pretty unusual.

Patch testing is not the best test for titanium at all. Mayo Clinic actually did a study patch testing for titanium and in 10 years they didn't have one positive study, even though they had ones that had to have titanium total implants or whatever removed and replaced with something different. They knew there was problems with the titanium, even though the patch test was negative.

In her particular case, she did test positive to titanium with the patch test, and then she had titanium posts under porcelain fused to metal crowns. Well, she worked for over a year or so to get this out and in her particular case…and she also could not hold a cell phone up to her ear. Her face would go numb and her muscles would start twitching. We're seeing some EMF type stuff. 

[00:35:41] Shari: I can interject and share a personal thing. Really interesting, and I don't know if this is something you've seen, but for the longest time before I knew anything about galvanic reactions, I told people I had…I felt like I had electricity running through my body.

Like I was plugged into a light socket and I called it surging because I didn't know what else to call it. It was like waves of electricity. And I started becoming more and more EMF sensitive. And I noticed, if I'm dehydrated it's much worse. If I go to get an MRI…anytime I'm exposed to magnetic energy, my muscles will jump and tremble. 

I got an Apple watch that I just loved and it was so super cute, but after three days, I felt like my entire body was plugged into a light socket. Within two days of taking it off I never had another symptom. So I had this entire thing. And the more and more metal I've had removed from my body, the less and less I have that electrical feeling.

But just like the foil wrapper giving me a shock. That's a real thing. And so I was actually delighted to find your work on Galvanism because it actually gave me an explanation for why I felt like I was plugged into a light socket all the time. 

[00:36:47] Dr. Schroeder: Yeah, and then you add that, you know EMF side of things and WiFi…  I've had patients…one patient I had the metal in…if there's a lightning storm outside and a bolt of lightning went, her foot would be shocked. She would just go Ow! And she worked in the hospital and then as soon as I took the plate and screws out that's all gone.

[00:37:05] Shari: Well, it’s validating to patients to know they're not crazy when weird stuff like this is going on. That was why I was so delighted to finally get a diagnosis cuz all these things that didn't make sense finally start making sense. So it must be amazing as the doctor of a patient to make these, these are life-changing diagnoses for patients to figure out…it’s just a shame that it's taking many of 'em 10…20 years to come back and they've had to live with who knows how many symptoms for how long?

[00:37:34] Dr. Schroeder: Yeah. And another patient…she was in front of the microwave and she would go into seizures. She had a bunch of metal, had a face crushed…had a bunch of metal there and some other things going on. Other patients, same type of thing. Oh, and she couldn't be around wifi at all. She had to have the wifi all turned off. She would shield her car…she couldn't be around cell phones. She ended up getting a bunch of the metal out and was significantly improved but she still has some metal to go and so I haven't heard back from her. She was actually from Canada and I was working with her. She would go to touch her child and her kids describe it as blue flames shooting out, you know how you get static electricity?

[00:38:13] Shari: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:38:15] Dr. Schroeder: But I mean, she really got it. Then when I took the metal out it wasn't as bad. We're finding more and more people are, you know, talking more about EMF. 

[00:39:09] Shari: What gave you the idea as a surgeon to look for galvanic reactions? How did that even get into your brain?

[00:39:15] Dr. Schroeder: So that came from my paralysis patient, after I operated on 'em, and we didn’t know about that until years later-four and a half or five that I believe you may have had on. 

[00:39:27] Shari: For those that are just tuning in today who haven't learned, his patient Dana was our second episode. Remarkable story. You can go back and catch that, but why don't you just summarize really quickly his journey for those who haven't heard that episode.

[00:39:38] Dr. Schroeder: He had come into me, he had some neuropathy from the knees down his toes were starting to curl, starting to get infections at the tips of the toes and we tried everything, nothing was getting better. So I said, “Okay, we gotta straighten these out.”. And then I have to shorten some bones cuz he was getting some areas that were like pre-ulcerative, like a diabetic, on the bottom. Then I go, “But do you know why you have neuropathy?”. He goes, “No.”. And I go, “Well you need to check that out.”. So anyway, he went around local area, then he went to University of Washington to get things checked out and then they referred him to Mayo Clinic. And so he went to Mayo Clinic, flew himself back there to get checked out. Basically he came back with idiopathic polyneuropathy….we don't know why.

And so, okay, well let's go ahead and do this surgery. So I straightened it out. Used two stainless steel screws in each metatarsal, so a total of eight. And then I had stainless steel pins in his toes to straighten them out. And those came out at six weeks. And then, okay, everything looks great. We typically, at that point we'd leave the screws in…see you later.

So he ended up coming back, luckily, at about four and a half years or so. And then he ended up having another issue and we're gonna have to address it surgically. But then I saw all this swelling on the tops of the feet where I had these screws and this isn't right. Let's just get those screws out while we're there cuz we don't need the screws anymore. So we ended up doing that and at this point I didn't know he was being paralyzed at all. He and his wife…just the nicest people.

[00:39:16] Shari: When you say paralyzed, for people who haven't heard the episode, tell us what that means.

[00:39:19] Dr. Schroeder: So he came to me, and this is the way I heard it also, is that he came back—it wasn't the first visit, but it was the second visit. And I was telling him at the pre-op about these things that I would see related to metals. And I saw he and his wife look at each other, and they looked at each other but didn't say anything. So then at two weeks he goes, “Okay doc, me and the anal engineer that I am, I went and started looking at when I started getting all this metal in my body and I had these amalgam fillings when I was a kid, had these two gold crowns and then had a titanium screw on my knee from an ACL repair.

And then you operated on me four or five years ago. And then I didn't realize at the time, but I went and looked at the timeline and three months after you did that, I started having episodes where I would be paralyzed, meaning all of his muscles would just go stiff.

His arms would be stiff, his legs would be stiff. He could breathe, but he could not talk and he could not move. And he said he woke up in bed one morning and the alarm was going off. His wife wasn't right there. And he sat there for 45 minutes not being able to move until his body finally relaxed and then he could move again and then he was okay. Then it progressed to an hour a day…two hours a day…three hours a day. Pretty soon he was in working and then seizes up and his boss is going,“You can't be working here anymore. You can die. You need to be disabled.”. And so then he started getting all this checked out and that progressed to 10 to 12 hours a day where he was just totally locked up. And twice he was in the pool and then went under the water and he couldn't move. He just had to wait for things to settle down. 

[00:42:41] Shari: You can't move when you're underwater?!

[00:42:43] Dr. Schroeder: Yeah. That's why his wife had to be around him all the time. He goes, “Then you remove these screws from my feet.”.  He goes, "I went from being paralyzed 10 to 12 hours a day, to three hours a day-overnight.”. And he goes, “I know something's going on here.”.

I knew what I wanted to do and I go, “We need to get your blood stent off.”. Right? And we worked with the gal who I had already been working with…immunotoxicologist, who invented the MELSA test over in Europe…in Germany. I talked to her and she said she'd do the test gratis. So we sent his blood over and they did the test and found out he was allergic to nickel, which I'd put in his foot, and he was highly, highly allergic to palladium. He had got this all checked out with the dentist. He found out his gold crowns were 26% palladium. So that was the first clue for me.

He was highly allergic to palladium. Okay. But he had these palladium crowns  in his body for a long, long time. And amalgam. How come he wasn't paralyzed then? He was still paralyzed though, even after I took the screws out of the feet, he was still paralyzed for up to three hours a day. 

So we get this tested and and I go, “Okay, what's your plan now?”. Because I knew he had a plan. Well, he was gonna get the screw out of his knee, which he did and then he ended up working on getting the metal out of his mouth. The day he got the last palladium crown…and Mayo Clinic basically said, “Sorry, you're just gonna be in a wheelchair the rest of your life.”. That wasn't acceptable to him. And also they told him, “You should just be in a nursing home and then just kinda live out your days there.”. So he just goes, “No I'm gonna keep plugging away here…”. So he gets the last palladium crown out of his mouth and he hasn't been paralyzed since. And then underneath that crown was black corrosion that the dentist had found. So I'm going, “Okay, well why?”. Before I put the screws in the foot, he wasn't paralyzed. Then I put the screws in the foot, and then after about three months, again, that delayed hypersensitivity reaction, right?

He started developing these symptoms, which then progressed. And in my  mind I'd removed them, but he was still paralyzed. If it was just the stainless steel all the paralysis should have gone away. But no, now we're up in the mouth. And again, stainless steel is the negative side and the gold is definitely more on the positive side. Then also talking to some people who specialize in galvanic corrosion in the body… They’re like. “A gold crown, it’s an alloy. So it has multiple metals in it.”.

I believe that happened when I put the stained steel in the foot, then it caused a react….and she said, “You'll have galvanic cells within the same metal.”. So the gold and the palladium in the metal can then create its own galvanic cell, and the gold is more noble than the palladium. So then you exacerbate that reaction, and then the palladium ions get released into the body. 

[00:45:34] Shari: So you were looking at the galvanic reaction because of the corrosion initially. Not necessarily because of the current?

[00:45:41] Dr. Schroeder: I felt something was going on. I thought there was a reaction somehow.

So then what I did prior to the FDA talk, I took a stainless steel plate I had taken out of a patient and a titanium plate I had taken out of a patient. And I worked with my local neurologist who does all kinds of diagnostic testing with electrical equipment and I said, “Hey, can I borrow your equipment to do this test?”. I told him what I wanted to do and he goes, “I think what's gonna work better for you is just take a good quality voltmeter and use ultrasound gel between the two and then test them.”. So that's what I did. And this is what I presented the FDA. 

[00:46:12] Shari: While you're looking for that, I think you just solved another mystery for me. Many times when I had all the medical stuff going on and nobody knew what it was, they wanted to do an EMG on me. They wanted to do nerve testing and also when I would go for physical therapy, they hooked me up to E-Stim. They could never perform a successful EMG on me. And E-Stim, you barely turn it on and I am coming off the table. I am so sensitive to any electric current going through my body. This is probably the explanation for that. Wouldn't that be reasonable?

[00:46:44] Dr. Schroeder: Yeah. I think it can be reasonable.

[00:46:46] Shari: Interesting. 

[00:46:47] Dr. Schroeder: So anyway, it was like 428 millivolts between…and they were just an inch apart between the titanium and the stainless steel…and then I go, “Well, I'm having problems six feet away.”. So I took a Hot Wheels track and went six feet away and then measured between the two and it was still 118 millivolts. All that's in my FDA talk and people can google my name and FDA…

[00:47:09] Shari: I freaking love science! This is how a scientific mind works people. You're, you're just brilliant!

[00:47:14] Dr. Schroeder: After I saw that, then I presented the FDA and I presented to the whole huge panel on orthopedic implants and stuff. Some of the people I know were saying the orthopedic surgeons were just kind of sitting up in their chairs cuz it's a long thing and people slouch back. But they were listening to this. And then I was talking to somebody there and they said, "Boy, sure be nice if we could do this in vivo, or in the body and I said, “Wait, I can do that. I have my own surgery center.”, and that's how some of the pictures I showed you… We ended up just taking a cautery probe, cutting off the end, hooking it up to the plugins to the voltmeter and then had the regular probe that we could disinfect for the mouth, and that's how we ended up doing that. And then, boy we were seeing this within all these changes and gold was always the highest differential between things, which we would kind of expect, and so it was even in…we test between the mouth, like the dentists had been doing for years with gold and stainless steel and amalgam.

This is simple physics though. This is simple physics that I think we've ignored in our body and we're only going six feet with this. Just think where the electrical current comes from…dams and all that. How many miles is that going? That's a lot of, high voltage, whatever stuff, still…it’s not really going that far. People always thought these metals always had to be touching and no, they did not have to be touching. 

What do we have? It's like ultrasound gel. What is it? Okay, well, it helps the current, right? Well, what do we have in our body? We have salt water. Salt water, blood, all these vessels, you know? And so that's where things we believe can go—back and forth and transmit. We're getting ions and all this transferring and what have you, in the current.

[00:48:54] Shari: The ultrasound gel is a perfect analogy, so thank you for that. That's gonna make it easy for people to understand. Let me…I know we're maybe get getting a little short on time. Let me ask you…I’ve got a list of questions here. Do you mind if we run down that list? 

[00:49:06] Dr. Schroeder: Fire away. 

[00:49:08] Shari: Okay. They may not be in any logical order here, but would you explain to us the difference between allergy to metals and toxicity to metals?

 [00:49:18] Dr. Schroeder: Yeah. So allergies is a response to the metal itself. And the toxicity is like you'll get a metal ion study. And you'll see for like cobalt they say like under 0.4 is normal and 0.5…and it depends on the lab and what have you, but 0.5 and above is, abnormal. And then they've learned that, okay, if you have too many ions in the body, like they have the cobalt/chrome hips that were rubbing metal on metal. 

[00:49:49] Yes. 

[00:49:50] Dr. Schroeder: And then you start getting metal ions that are then going throughout the body, right?

[00:49:55] Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:56] Dr. Schroeder: And then you can have a toxicity to that and toxicity to various metals, because the ion level in the body is too high. Which can have nothing to do with an allergy. 

[00:50:08] Shari: Yeah. Perfect example. I think I had an allergy and I think it was cobalt…I didn't have an allergy to it, but I had elevated cobalt ions in my body from my hardware.

[00:50:16] Dr. Schroeder: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:17] Shari: How do you recommend, if somebody has a toxicity issue or even if it's an allergy issue…do our bodies purge these metals naturally? Or what have you found—or have you found good ways to eliminate the metals from the body to detox these? 

[00:50:34] Dr. Schroeder: I'm not on that side of things much as far as that goes. I'm learning more and more about 'em, but our body will naturally tend to purge things…but if you're constantly getting bombarded with it, you can't keep ahead of it, right? 

[00:50:47] Shari: I mean, this is a whole other episode, but for example, I've heard that chelation is not necessarily good for metal detox if you have metal in the body because it pulls metal….

[00:50:56] Dr. Schroeder: Right. You have to be very careful with that.

[00:50:59] Shari: Because it can redistribute, right? 

[00:51:02] Dr. Schroeder: Right. Well, yeah. A dental friend that I had became a biologic dentist after this because of this incident. She had amalgam and then she was having some toxic symptoms associated with the mercury and all that. She decided she would work with chelation and that type of thing to get the mercury out of her body, right? Well, when you have amalgam in, it's gonna pull from the easiest source. So what it ended up doing…it pulled the mercury out of the amalgam into the body and she almost died. She became very aware of all this and then she kinda went the route she did.

[00:51:35] Shari: Yeah, I've done some chelation and it was pretty hard on me. It may be effective…it did not feel like the right fit for me. I think the thing that's been really helpful, and I'm gonna do a whole episode on detox, for me the most helpful was an infrared sauna to just sweat, sweat, sweat, sweat. I really seem to feel better from that, but I was curious if you had input on that. So what options do people with metal allergies have when they need an implant or when they need surgery?

[00:52:02] Dr. Schroeder: Alright. Number one you look at do you have problems with certain makeups? Do you have problems with earrings? A lot of people already know…okay, no, I can't have the belt buckle up against me. So they already have an idea. And if you have that at all, you definitely need to be tested. What would I recommend for my family member if they were to have a total joint total implant or something else, that metal that was gonna be put into their body that couldn't be taken out at least very easily or it was gonna be risky to get it out? Absolutely I would want them tested, prior to that with a lymphocyte transformation test.

MELISA is one that's out of Germany they've been excellent. Orthopedic Analysis is here, in Chicago and there's some others that are around that don't have the bigger panels like they do. MELISA has the biggest panel by far in the world as far as the different metals, so that has been excellent for that and I found it very, very beneficial.

Just in the paralysis patient… We wouldn't have had an idea to look into the mouth. If that test hadn't come back positive for Palladium, cuz you're going, “Where the heck's he getting this from?”. 

[00:53:11] Shari: I have heard that if you don't have a particular exposure, a particular metal in the body, that sometimes the LTT test may not be super effective. So for somebody who's never had surgery that might wanna be tested, they might think they have a metal allergy, would an LTT test be effective? I think we're gonna have reps from Orthopedic Analysis and MELISA on the podcast, so we will be going further into this, but just generally what would you advise a patient?

[00:53:37] Dr. Schroeder: Yeah. Generally what you have to be careful of…I’ve had patients that have had issues along this line that just if you're negative from the initial test, all it's gonna tell you is if you've been sensitized along the way.

A lot of kids have braces. Then you can be sensitized potentially to nickel and molybdenum and chromium and…because that's what's in there. So you can get your body sensitized, and then when your body sees it again, then oops…you know, you can potentially have an issue, right? And other things with earrings and various metals. But that's just a good baseline to know….okay, yeah. I am sensitive to nickel. Don't use a nickel-based implant. Okay? And oh, you know, I happen to be allergic to titanium…don’t use the titanium based implant. But they may be all negative. And then you get an implant, whether it's cobalt chrome…whether it's titanium…whether it's stainless steel…doesn’t matter.

You may be fine at the beginning, but then down the road a number of months…or years…you start developing these other diffuse symptoms that are autoimmune type symptoms. 

Thyroid…whenever I see hypothyroid on a patient’s…that's a big red flag for me and autoimmune-type things—all this stuff that can be related. And MELISA’s website is great for all of that cuz they go on MELISA's website and they have a bunch of this stuff listed.

So if anybody's ever concerned about potentially having some type of metal thing, go to MELISA's website and then probably other information you have also, to steer 'em towards and that type of thing. Yeah, but MELISA’s been great for that. 

So then what can happen though? Then you start getting these symptoms, then what you need to do, you need to re-test. Because then you can become sensitized after. And all of our bodies are different. You go, “Hey, I was negative before….”. Yeah, but you didn't have that metal in your body. 

[00:55:24] Shari: Yeah. We had a podcast guest…a mutual friend had his thing. Allergic to titanium. No problem. They replaced it with stainless steel. Four months later he is allergic to stainless steel. 

[00:55:33] Dr. Schroeder: That's exactly what I'm talking about.

[00:55:35] Shari: So it would probably be better to not have to have a metal implant if at all possible. If you know upfront you've got any metal sensitivities.

[00:55:45] Dr. Schroeder: Mm-hmm. Right. I think people kind of have this hypersensitive effect to them where they can be more sensitized potentially to metals if they have something.

So you just have to…if you can avoid a metal…and you can't always do that. But they are coming out with some absorbable screws these days, that are like 50% calcium…and that's a new company that's just been out I heard about. And I was very intrigued by that. They’re small, but they’re growing. Instead of having to put a screw in that is metal this is…it’s calcium, I think it's about 50% calcium based. And then it's, "Okay, how long do you need a screw in to heal bone?”. Like I said two to three months or so and four months and then it absorbs and turns to bone.

[00:56:30] Shari: That's fantastic. 

[00:56:31] Dr. Schroeder: That particular company, like I say, is a new company. It's called OseoFiber. I was impressed as far as that goes, for a kind of a metal-free alternative. They’re starting to get their reps in different areas. Usually I don't mention companies, but that is one——cuz we don't, have as many metal free devices. Obviously I would like to see out there. 

[00:56:50] Shari: Now what other technologies are coming. Like I've heard carbon steel is generally safe for people with metal allergies?

[00:56:56] Dr. Schroeder: You mean carbon fiber? Yeah, carbon fiber. So they'll have carbon fiber plates but when I met with one of the Vice Presidents of the company or talk to ‘em I go, "Okay, how do you attach 'em to the bone?”. “Oh, we use titanium screws.”. And so I'm going, “Well, that kind of defeats the purpose.”, you know?

[00:57:15] Shari: My dentist just said that there's a new carbon fiber implant.

[00:57:19] Dr. Schroeder: I'll have to talk to my dental friends, you know, my colleagues and…

[00:57:23] Shari: Yeah, let us know what you find out on that. What about ceramic? There's just gotta be…. Like I’m terrified to have anything. If I ever need a shoulder or a knee or a cardiac stent or a pacemaker…how can I protect myself and people like me?

[00:57:35] Dr. Schroeder: Well When I presented the FDA that's what I was telling 'em. I hope we can help with research for more ceramic-type implants that are functional. And they have various forms of these ceramic-type implants or ceramic coated implants. We're still not where we need to be as far as being able to do that. There are some things out there, and for some people it worked great and some of the surgeons that I've talked to…some of the orthopedic surgeons. They’re going, “Well it just doesn't function as well as some of these other implants”, that they utilize. Again, we're talking about metal sensitivities and all that, but most people still do well with what they have. But it's just finding out when you don't do well, what do you do? 

[00:58:15] Shari: At one point you said that your patients, in your experience, about 3-4% were the ones exhibiting metal allergies. Do you still feel like that's an accurate number or is it way higher? 

[00:58:25] Dr. Schroeder: That's just the patients that have life changing issues. Okay. Not just the people that are reacting to it. Life changing issues where they are starting to become more disabled or it affects their everyday life. 

[00:58:42] Shari: Do you still feel like the number's that low?

[00:58:45] Dr. Schroeder: Not for just metal allergies itself. I mean, you look at just nickel. In one of the FDA things it’s 18 to 20%. Titanium….some of the studies are in the 6% range. I believe it's higher, yes, because what I've seen with my patients, but I think we just have to have some good studies. I don't think that even in some of the studies—they’re just concentrating…Oh, did you get a rash? Nope. Okay. You're not allergic.”. 

[00:59:06] Shari: Is this why you think that medical professionals aren't giving as much weight as they should to metal hypersensitivity because the studies just aren't there?

[00:59:13] Dr. Schroeder: Right. Yeah. I think the studies and then getting the information from the studies. There are a lot of studies out there actually. I just had a new one sent to me from a patient I worked with over in Boston. She just sent it to me this morning. A new thing on neurotoxicity from titanium or suspected neurotoxicity from titanium. Again, there's a lot of studies out there, but it's just putting them all together and getting a good base. A lot of these are case reports of not very super large ones, so you really need a good…a large university study. But in the meantime, who's gonna help the little person, so to speak, affected by metal allergies?

Unfortunately they have to be their own best advocate and listen to programs like this and others and really search on their own. If they're concerned about some of these symptoms…look at the symptoms that can be associated with metal allergies: I have this…oh, did you have an implant? Biggest thing is Timeline. When did I start developing? Did I have any metal put in my body within a month or a year or two before that? If the answer is yes, then I'd recommend getting tested, with the lymphocyte transformation test—the MELISA test…Orthopedic Analysis if you can't get it from MELISA, and then test to see. You still have some other tests to get done too, but you need to at least rule it out. 

[01:00:28] Shari: So how, how can patients best communicate to their doctors without being offensive. Some doctors are a little proud and I think they wanna help, but sometimes it's hard for us patients to know how to approach a surgeon or a doctor with something like this.

[01:00:41] Dr. Schroeder: That has been probably a number one thing because it's not something that's really taught in our medical training. I certainly wasn't taught it. I was told yeah, you can be allergic and look for ears being…but that was kind of it. Ears with earrings. You have to number one, in talking, yes, you get the research behind you and papers and that type of thing, but still it's the individual doctor. Everybody’s different. Some people are just gonna shut you down…"Nope, haven't heard of that before. It doesn't exist.” And then you need to move on to a different doctor. Because what I've noticed from patients that try to push that envelope, it doesn't usually turn out well. Basically it's just frustrating. And so you have to move on to somebody else that's gonna start listening. Okay. And I think more people are starting to listen. 

I was just talking yesterday…a gal from Maryland. She was just gonna have to start looking for another doc that would listen to her and have some empathy for what she's going through. It is definitely difficult, but I think you have to move on if you're not getting where you want to get. Sometimes if you're too strong, then that's a problem too and it just really turns the doc off right away. 

[01:01:45] Shari: We're hearing a lot about problems with surgical clips and staples. So you're a surgeon. What are the alternatives? What can surgeons do without using them? 

[01:01:54] Dr. Schroeder: I don't do those types of surgeries that require those clips, but I've talked to a general surgeon friend of mine. He’s been training, you know residents and they've come out with absorbable clips. They use 'em in robots apparently quite a bit. I don't do those types of surgeries, but they use absorbable clips or they tie 'em. A lot of surgeons don't pay a whole lot of attention to these clips.

I just talked to a group of OR nurses and techs who work with the gallbladders…the cholecystectomies and thyroid. They put clips in all the time. Most of the time they're titanium these days. It used to be stainless steel—some of 'em still are, I believe. They say “We don't keep track of those”, on their implant log. And I'm just going, “Why not?”. I mean, like you say, we are seeing problems with these patients. I know two right now. Just dramatic improvement after removal of their clips. I mean, life-changing.

[01:02:47] Shari: And surgeons say…many surgeons have said these can't come out. It's impossible to take them out. But that's just not true. Clips and staples can be removed, yes? 

[01:02:56] Dr. Schroeder: Can they be difficult? Yes, they absolutely can be.  But they can. I was just talking to actually one of the surgeons that did that this past week or so…that removed clips in those two patients. And she's been practicing for 30 years, but she goes, “Yeah, you just need to know your anatomy and then be confident in what you're doing. Yes there's scar tissue and all this, but we have our x-ray to help localize things. And you gotta be careful where the nerve is…”.  And all this. But she was incredibly confident. Surgeons just may not want to do it because it’s risky. 

[01:03:24] Shari: I know the case study you're talking about and that poor girl looked for years to find a doctor who was willing to do that surgery for her. It was just pure persistence. 

[01:03:35] Dr. Schroeder: Right, right. 

[01:03:37] Shari: It paid off in spades because I think she couldn't transfer from the car to the wheelchair prior to surgery and she walked outta surgery and never got back in the wheelchair from what I understand…. 

[01:03:46] Dr. Schroeder: that's what I'm talking about where some of these things can be pretty amazing.

[01:03:50] Shari: What can surgical facilities and hospitals do to better screen patients for metal allergies? 

[01:03:56] Dr. Schroeder: I think it's in the doctor's office really that it's gonna have to come from. When they're gonna do a procedure, number one, they need to have a big questionnaire. And they probably do—but got have to make sure that they're asking these questions about metal allergies and some of the questions about makeups. A lot of makeups have titanium dioxide in them and some people…oh yeah I can't wear makeup or I have problems with this or that and earrings.

Those are simple things. I think it may come in the future that we just test people prior to an implant that's not gonna be able to come out. I think it's a simple test…easy test it’s just a blood draw. And test will take 10 to 14 days to get the result back. 

And if you're a surgeon, you're gonna put titanium based implant, but they're allergic titanium on the test. Why would you ever do that? So when you know, there may be an issue as far as that goes, they use a different type of implant and then it may save the surgeon a heck of a lot of headaches down the road and then certainly the patient, as far as that goes. 

[01:04:55] Shari: What's important for the patient with metal allergies? What can be done as far as prepping surgical consents? Is it appropriate to address the metal allergy in the surgical timeout?

[01:05:06] Dr. Schroeder: What you do is if you know you have allergies to metals, because sometimes the surgeons don't think about the clips they go in, so you can, in your allergy sheet, if you do know you're allergic to something, 

make sure it's all listed there, number one. And if you have an idea you might be, then you should push as a patient to get tested prior. Say, “Hey, I'm gonna have this implant. I wanna have this lymphocyte transformation test from wherever, and please sign off on this to get the blood drawn.”. And you may have to pay for it. Some of these tests…it’s $610 bucks for one of ‘em. But that versus you having some of these issues that we showed is a heck of a lot better than lifelong of being in a wheelchair not being able to transfer.

[01:05:54] Shari: $610 bucks is nothing. I've had to have surgery twice for almost every single episode. Once to go in and Once to fix it. So, compared to a surgical deductible every year, $610 is affordable. Now, I happen to be one that thinks that the global fee for the surgery should include the removal. We don't pay for a recall when we take a car back in. I think if you're gonna have it put in and they recommend you take it out…but that's a whole other fight for another day.

[01:06:18] Dr. Schroeder: We go through allergies at the timeout in the OR. So if you have it listed there… But then also list metal implants if you know you don't want any metal in you. A lot of people don't know you can go in for a cholecystectomy…getting your gallbladder out. Were you told you're gonna have metal in you? Or you're having some other vascular surgery and you don't always know. So just put in your list metal implants. So when they're in the timeout in the OR they have to read that off--metal implants. And you can even put surgical clips, you don't want surgical…you just put surgical clips. So then that's protecting yourself from them putting something in. Cuz they're supposed to read that prior to the surgery. 

[01:06:2580] Shari: So one of our podcast guests went out for revision to his lumbar fusion surgery. Went out and the doctor was aware of the metal allergy— changing out one type of hardware for another type of hardware. And during that second surgery implanted 16 metal clips. So I'm only assuming that there wasn't communication between the lumbar spine surgeon and the vascular surgeon. How can that be corrected? How can they improve communication between surgical teams because…

[01:07:25] Dr. Schroeder: Right. 

[01:07:26] Shari:…I don't even understand how that happened.

[01:07:27] Dr. Schroeder: Yeah, It looks like it was a communication thing. It's very unfortunate as far as that goes. It's really an education on the bigger scope of  things for the surgeons to understand that what we do is not always inert.

Especially when we're dealing with some of the metal. It’s gonna be an awareness for the docs and then awareness of the various surgeons to understand that there can be issues and so we have to pay attention. We have to stop. And also for the surgical crews and the staff. It’s education. All of its education. For all of 'em. And unfortunately right now, the only people to educate 'em are the people that are listening to this podcast and others and finding out that oh, these can be issues.

[01:08:11] Shari: Is there something that should be crossed out in the surgical consent? I know you can add metal clips and add implants, but is there something that should be crossed out and what paragraph would that be, or does it vary with the facility? 

[01:08:24] Dr. Schroeder: So what do you mean crossed out? 

[01:08:26] Shari: So you give global consent, I think, when you sign a surgical consent. Is there something that says ‘I authorize you to do anything you need to save my life to implant anything’, are there clauses like that, or do you just have to read it and cross out and initial anything you don't agree with? 

[01:08:40] Dr. Schroeder: You make sure you tell 'em, “I want no metal in my body and I wanna see it on the consent.”. Okay…. “I want no metal placed in my body.”.

[01:08:50] Shari: I've heard to have the surgeon initial it.

[01:08:52] Dr. Schroeder: Yeah, that would be the best. Unfortunately it's not always a surgeon that's having 'em sign the consent. It’s a nurse or what have you, but you make sure that point is made—I want no metal placed in my body. And then if you do have them initial it, then that nurse or whoever or PA…they said this specifically, we gotta make sure to do that. So then now they're gonna educate the rest of the team. 

[01:09:17] Shari: Are there any anesthesia concerns with metal allergies? 

[01:09:20] Dr. Schroeder: It's not my specialty as far as that goes, so I don't know what they have as far as metals, or if they do or…I do know you have in tablets that we take by mouth. A lot of the fillers in a number of these is titanium dioxide. And I've had patients that were allergic to titanium dioxide and…I didn't know why I was having a problem with these medications…

[01:09:42] Shari: Do you have any opinion on the role that diet plays in metal hypersensitivity? 

[01:09:47] Dr. Schroeder: Yes. A very big one. Because that is a lot of my patients. A number of them are allergic to nickel. I tell them, “Okay, afterwards, you're gonna have to really be careful of your diet and go on a low nickel diet when you're allergic to this. And, they think just getting the metal out of themselves is gonna be fine. They're gonna be great, and they typically are. But then guess what? Then they come back with these symptoms and I go, “What'd you eat?”. And they go, “What do you mean?”. I go, “Remember we talked about your low nickel diet? Like chocolate is high and whole wheat and beans and seeds and nuts and soy…”. And they go, well, I just had a….”.

[01:08:48] Shari: Paleo stuff! So all you paleo people, if you're having chronic pain, stop eating paleo!

[01:10:31] Dr. Schroeder: There was two gals in my office…that same thing. Got them tested and they’re allergic nickel. I'd just look at them. I’d look at their face, I could see it in their eyes and then the movements and I go, “What'd you eat?”. “Well, I just had to have my white chocolate mocha…”. And I go,
“Okay, well you're gonna pay the price.”. And so white chocolate’s less than some of the others, but in her particular case, no. And that happens with a lot of patients.

So nickel and then titanium dioxide is in a number of things too. Pills…tablets… …Tylenol…Aleve…Advil… just the tablets. The gel caps are better. They typically don't have it in there.

[01:11:2058] Shari: So I'm terrible. I have to decide if it's worth it, and then if I decide it's worth it, I just make sure I take an antihistamine with it.

[01:11:11] Dr. Schroeder: And sometimes that's the case, right?

[01:11:12] Shari: Yeah. Sometimes you can't live without your chocolate! So tell us in wrapping up here, what plans do you have for the future? What projects do you have going on? What studies are you doing? What can we look forward to from Dr. Schroeder? 

[01:11:26] Dr. Schroeder: Too many things, but big thing is probably gonna be the galvanic study, which I understand from my dental friend that there's never been one done in the world before. So to get that paper out—they already presented some of that in a dental conference over in Rome.

Also I'm gonna be presenting in April at the International Academy of Ceramic Implantology. A lot of big things these days are the titanium implants. FDA has probably over 3 million complaints right now with the dental implants. And again, it's not everybody, but I’ve seen a number of those too. 

So this is a group where they're using more of the ceramics, as far as the dental implants, and there's certain techniques they have to do to make sure they get everything just right and all this. So they're having me present…and they had me present last year in Vegas. Particularly on the galvanic things and just some of these patients—have a number of them that are related and related to the dental world too.

So doing that. I'll have some other articles going and I'll be writing up the paralysis patient and some others and then founding a metal allergy and reactions institute. It's not there yet. I’m just getting all the legal paperwork together and it's basically just someplace to kind of work out of and then have information.

The goal is to get information out. I've been working with doctors around the country and other parts of the world also. And getting a group together so we can just be talking about our own experiences and learn from each other and that type of thing. So it's seems like it’s unfortunately more of a grassroots type thing, We just need to work on educating people. But it's coming more and more. People are learning about it…more and more podcasts, which is great , and that type of thing.

And so getting the information out, cuz there's a lot of people suffering right now that have no idea why they're suffering actually. So the more they can hear, the more I think it, it's gonna be better for them. That's the biggest thing is getting the word out to the different communities and the medical communities also. So…

[01:13:23] Shari: I can't thank you enough for the work that you're doing, on behalf of me and patients like me. And that's the whole reason that this podcast is trying to reach out, is to alleviate the suffering. And I wish you could clone yourself because we need about a thousand Dr. Schroeder’s maybe more. 

[01:13:40] Dr. Schroeder: Well, thanks. And it's been a passion. I've retired from my clinical practice per se, but this is my passion, just cuz I see people, and I've been able to help people and just help them understand what could happen and then hopefully steer 'em in the right direction to get help from docs…to be able to remove these metals and change their life.

And it's happened many, many times. That makes you feel good. So that's the goal at this point in time. 

[01:14:04] Shari: Will the institute be more research based, or will it have facilities to reach out to patients?

[01:12:32] Dr. Schroeder: I… I don't know. It…it just depends. But ultimately… I’m working on a book also to get out, but that's not in the next number of months or anything like that. But, it'll be metal allergies and reactions—a guide for surgeons, primary care providers, rheumatologists and patients. Basically guiding them through the process. Okay. If you're concerned about this or, like we talked about, if you're gonna have an implant… What if it was my family, what would I do? This is how I would approach it. If you feel you do have…well, what are some of the symptoms? Do you see any of your symptoms on here? Oh yeah, okay, well now what do you do? How do you do it? How do you talk to the doctors? And how do you work on that? Because there are certain things you wanna do or not wanna do.

And all the docs are a little bit different anyway. What I'd really like to see, which a professor friend of mine recommended, is having actually a new field of medicine, where they actually work….and they are the ones that specialize in metal allergies. And then they work with the other doctors and they go, ‘okay, well hey…you had your dentist…you need to look at these metals, because you're allergic to these. You should have those replaced’. And then, ‘oh, you have this plate and screws in your foot and you're allergic to that metal. You need to go to your foot and ankle surgeon to ask them. And hey, I'll help facilitate that…’.

[01:15:24] Shari: Have you thought about doing a training for physicians? 

[01:15:28] Dr. Schroeder: That's what some of these conferences and everything are. And so I presented at pain clinics and I get a lot of questions. Almost everybody in the audience when I get done talking can know of some person in their family or friends that have some of these issues that I just talked about. A lot of people come up afterwards. There’ll be 2-300 doctors in the room when I present. So if you could just open the mind a little bit.

[01:15:55] Shari: it would be amazing if there was some kind of certification that somebody could have. Some initials that they could add behind their name to say, hey, I'm aware of…certified in metal allergies.

[01:13:07] Dr. Schroeder: A big goal is gonna be getting this into the medical schools and working to get this part of the training. I think there's enough, you know, research even out there already to be able to do that. And then the FDA, at least in our country, really needs to keep taking a bigger role. They move pretty darn slowly.

[01:16:25] Shari: It's gonna take a village and you're just one person. And I'm just one person. So…

[01:16:30] Dr. Schroeder: Right. We just gotta keep going. 

[01:16:31] Shari: …Get that message out there. Well, thank you for coming on today and really, really appreciate your time. We will have links in the show notes and photographs of some of Dr. Schroder's work and we'll look forward to having Dr. Schroder back on the podcast. 

One really important question we forgot to ask you….and I warned you that this was coming. You cannot be on the Heavily Metalled podcast without telling us who your favorite heavy metal band is and what your favorite heavy metal song is.

[01:16:58] Dr. Schroeder: You worked kind of in the heavy metal business, right? 

[01:17:01] Shari: I was. We’re talking eighties metal…Sunset Strip…where the girls looked like girls…

[01:17:06] Dr. Schroeder:  I saw a picture of you with one particular performer in the name of Rod Stewart, even though he's not considered heavy metal. Is that right? 

[01:17:17] Shari: No, , I wouldn't call Rod Stewart heavy metal, but…

[01:17:20] Dr. Schroeder: Heavy metal…. Actually, boy, there’s heavy metal bands and then they ended up having kind of some of their most impressive songs…and I'm gonna be the weird guy on this one…but some of their most impressive songs were more of some of their softer songs. 

[01:17:38] Shari: Okay, that counts. Rock ballads are cool. 

[01:17:41] Dr. Schroeder: Like Extreme—Aren’t they more heavy metal? 

[01:17:47] Shari: Yeah, they qualify. 

[01:17:46] Dr. Schroeder: Their song “More than Words…”

[01:17:50] Shari: Yes. 

[01:17:51] Dr. Schroeder: Was more of their soft ballad-type thing. I would have to, you know, like I say, I’m a little on the other side.

[01:17:57] Shari: That counts. Extreme "More than Words”. And I’m sure that this song you will know…I close all my podcasts by shouting out to the medical industry that we are not gonna take it anymore. 

[01:18:08] Dr. Schroeder: Oh, I like it. I do like it. Yep. 

[01:18:13] Shari: Thanks Dr. Schroeder. I really appreciate it.

[01:18:15] Dr. Schroeder: Sounds good. Okay, that sounds great. Thanks.